Bitter Suarez Overplays His Hand With Evra Snub
Posted on 11. Feb, 2012 by Tom Cullimore in Blog
Liverpool Football Club’s defence of Luis Suarez has been nothing short of emphatic throughout the player’s involvement in a racism row that has so desperately damaged the reputations of those involved. Today, in front of millions of viewers worldwide, the Uruguayan pushed the notion of unconditional support further than ever before by refusing to shake the hand of Patrice Evra. Valuable as loyalty will always be in football, behaviour as unsporting as Suarez’s undermines the basic levels of decency in the English game and cannot be justified; innocent or guilty, he is undeniably in the wrong.
Whilst his manager defies popular opinion to publically back his player, risking his reputation in the process, Suarez’s motivation is anything but selfless. The opportunity to repay his manager’s faith was presented to him with Evra’s hand, and in refusing with such unashamed, childish and shallow petulance, he has raised serious questions about his commitment to those who believed every word of his testimony. Any sympathy fans had for the forward, quick to argue the case of his own victimisation, should now be dead in the water.
Inevitably the latest development in an entirely regrettable saga raises the much discussed question as to whether or not Suarez should have been banned in the first place. Put simply – it should not. Though Evra has been painted an untrustworthy figure with regard to racism accusations by opposition fans, the facts, as determined by an independent panel, found the following to be true:
- that Luis Suarez’s account of events was inconsistent with those of Damien Comolli and Dirk Kuyt, and consequently unreliable,
- that Patrice Evra found the language used by Suarez to be racially offensive,
- that linguistic experts, whilst unable to prove that the use of the word ‘negro’ was derogatory, as it has the potential to be, were equally unable to prove the reverse.
With each linguistic stance negated, the outcome rested on the aforementioned clarity of argument presented by the players in question. If we accept that Evra felt he had been racially abused, something we absolutely should, there is little to no room to defend Suarez.
Liverpool are by no means the only club to have acted inappropriately during the period. Manchester United, too, should regret aspects of their behaviour; Ferguson’s press conferences decrying Suarez have done little to diffuse the tension between the clubs, whilst the same might be said for the elaborate post match celebrations of Patrice Evra following their 2-1 win earlier today. Neither, however, can be classed as intrinsically offensive. Distasteful, perhaps, but they are hardly deserving of the scorn that Suarez has brought on himself.
Herein lies the problem for the Premier League pariah – had he apologised immediately, had his club not counter-accused Evra of using offensive language, then, given time, his protests of mistranslation might eventually have been listened to. As it stands a well-publicised denial has been followed by a low-key apology, and now a deeply undignified gesture. If Liverpool were looking to position themselves as the voice of reason they could not have failed more miserably.
Suggestions, as I write this, have filtered through Twitter that Evra refused to shake Suarez’s hand. It is part of, as I understand it, a wider conspiracy by the Frenchman to destroy our No. 7’s career, through continued deception. That his hand was limp as Suarez approached proves absolutely nothing – he is one of eleven United players, all of whom displayed a certain lethargy as the Uruguayan appeared in front of them. Once more, Liverpool fans are seeing what they want to rather than what is necessarily true, and though it is admirable to defend the reputation of their player, in this instance they would be wise back down before the row escalates even further.
“For a club with their history, I’d get rid of him, I really would…He is a disgrace to Liverpool Football Club. That player should not be allowed to play for Liverpool again. The history that club has got … and he does that today.” When the respect shown by the Manchester United manager to Liverpool eclipses that of our own players, something, somewhere has gone desperately wrong.
It is often said that no player is bigger than their club. With this in mind, regardless of his ample ability, Luis Suarez must change his attitude or face being left behind by Liverpool Football Club. Such flagrant disregard for the proud traditions of England’s greatest footballing institution cannot be tolerated. Kenny Dalglish can absorb only so much of the ire directed towards his player – if Suarez had any pride left he would apologise publically to both Evra and his club for his behaviour. If today’s events have proved one thing, it is this: the mischief that has established Suarez as a fan favourite knows no limits. As his egocentric conduct leaves Kenny Dalglish to walk alone, we are forced to conclude that, barring a drastic change in attitude, Liverpool Football Club might just have had enough of Luis Suarez.
Feel free to let me know what you think below, or on Twitter @tom_cullimore
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72 Responses to “Bitter Suarez Overplays His Hand With Evra Snub”
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Neil
11. Feb, 2012
For gods sake lets not destroy Suarez whilst I don’t condone what he done evra is not innocent in all of this he didn’t want to shake Suarez hand either you don’t keep your hand down if u want to shake someone’s hand
Pete
11. Feb, 2012
I am not convinced that this writer considered the psychology of the two players after the verdict by the FA. Evra felt abused while Suarez felt misjudged by continually showing innocence. Like I tweeted, the English FA may have planted a ‘bamboo’ that will be hard to eradicate. Is the writer absolutely convinced that the matter was rightly judged? No one can actually tell.
GuidoLFC
11. Feb, 2012
If you accused me of being a Racist when I’m not, I’d refuse to shake your hand too.. Most men would do the same if they felt they were innocent.. 8 game ban and I’m supposed to help you look like the bigger man by shaking hands? Fuck that.. If I felt I was stitched up I’d never roll play in a scenario that confirmed my supposed wrongs???
ryan
11. Feb, 2012
Completely agree with you. I don’t blame Suarez for not shaking Evra’s hand (even though replays show Evra actually had his hand down when Suarez first walked by). The FA messed this situation up by not cancelling the hand shake…funny how they help John Terry out but not Suarez….instead Suarez comes out of this looking like the jackass.
Big W
12. Feb, 2012
No, Chelsea and QPR cancelled the handshake, not the FA. Don’t invent conspiracy where there is none.
Arimaman
12. Feb, 2012
The FA told the clubs to cancel the hand shakes.
fact
Big W
12. Feb, 2012
While it might be a massive anti-LFC conspiracy, the BBC website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16772441) reads:
“Following discussions on Friday evening and Saturday morning involving senior officials from QPR, Chelsea and the FA, it has been agreed there will not be the usual team handshake before today’s FA Cup [...] tie at Loftus Road,” an FA statement read.
The FA agreed to the request by both clubs in an attempt to further defuse tensions before the match.”
QPR manager Mark Hughes suggested after game that the pre-match handshake may have been cancelled because more than one of his players were considering snubbing Terry.
Hughes revealed he held a meeting with his players on Friday evening at which some of them hinted they would be prepared to join Ferdinand in refusing to shake Terry’s hand.
“With the group I have got I know they wanted to support their team-mate and the situation in the end was to take it out of the equation and not to have the issue,” said Hughes.
Big W
12. Feb, 2012
Also, both KD and Fergie believed there would be a handshake hence no need for the FA to get involved. Look, I’m not saying the FA are perfect but in the instance of the handshake, they are not to blame. This relentless shifting the blame has been bad news for LFC so kudos for the statements today. We just have to hold our hands up sometimes.
AndyCarrollAintThatBad
12. Feb, 2012
Arimaman, that’s not quite true mate. Chelski and QPR approached the FA cos they thought there would be a snub on the handshake. Not the same as Suarez and Evra who we were told would shake hands before the game.
Neil
11. Feb, 2012
Just heard Gordon Taylor on sky evra the victim rio right to refuse to shake his hand all the media and radio and sky are all against Suarez and Liverpool fc why don’t they all just f”"k off
John
11. Feb, 2012
Tom why dont you move to salford and put your name down for a season ticket for old trafford
Geoff
11. Feb, 2012
A sad affair. I think Dalglish has seriously tarnished his reputation for an individual who cares about nothing or noone. Liverpool FC are a great club. The chairman needs to be seen to act, to be decisive – a rock – and sort out this nightmare before LFC start losing sponsors. Make no mistake this is serious.
sjallen
11. Feb, 2012
Just another wool masquerading as a liverpool fan just Fuck off
FrostedFlames
11. Feb, 2012
Hey Tom, I hope you don’t seriously believe that SAF was being sincere when he said those words. The man whose life’s mission has been to destroy Liverpool FC makes a statement that our best player should never play for us again and you believe that he has our best interests at heart? Mind you, I believe that Suarez was in the wrong here. But please don’t use SAF’s quote to try to bolster that argument, because only a moron would believe that he cares about preserving our club’s reputation. He does not have more respect for Liverpool than Suarez does. Please leave his comments out of any future articles about this matter.
1ofthejuicys
11. Feb, 2012
Don’t worry Luis; tomorrow, fortnight you will be holding the Carling cup above your head in front of 100,000 fans in Wembley Stadium…….YNWA
Taf
11. Feb, 2012
Utter rubbish. I wouldn’t shake Evra’s hand either. Be real Mr Writer. It’s best you stop supporting LFC if you are this deluded.
Peter
11. Feb, 2012
Evra acting like he’s won the premiership , trying to get reactions out of Suarez , causing commotion in the tunnel? Adding to Fergusons mind games , hmm typical Mancs and there short memories. We all know that Evra thinks he’s white, but we know what you are , you’re not fooling anybody , and before anyone says racist I am of ethnic background and if I’m being honest Evra is a white mans monkey
Big W
12. Feb, 2012
“before anyone says racist I am of ethnic background and if I’m being honest Evra is a white mans monkey”
And that makes this comment ok? Seriously?
Bigdog
11. Feb, 2012
I have never read such crap in my life!!!!8 game ban and his reputation ruined in england (he will get abuse walkin down the street and off the terraces).it was his decision to not shake hands cause of this.we should all be behind him.luis suarez liverpools no.7 ynwa
Prime
11. Feb, 2012
Dear Tom,
Do we forget what Cantona did back in the day, did Fergie ever get rid of him???
You writers have very short memories.
Nuff said, this article should be deleted as it’s a disgrace to this site and all that is LFC.
Suarez will never walk alone.
Big W
12. Feb, 2012
Cantona’s kick wasn’t about racism (he even kicked a BNP member); Fergie’s comments were about racism. Fergie is very clear on this. We don’t have to like him but let’s get the issues straight first. This is looking bad enough for LFC without people jumping in without thinking.
Enough
11. Feb, 2012
Tom – you are wrong. First, your factual layout is wrong. For example, the FA also found, and Patrice Evra admitted, that Evra directed disparaging remarks at Luis Suarez; no action taken. In addition, not every Utd. player approached Suarez with “lethargy,” e.g., Ryan Giggs. Lastly, you have clearly mistaken the esoteric nature of Ferguson’s comments. He conceded Liverpool’s great history for a greater cause – to undermine Kenny Dalglish. If anyone took the moral high ground today, it was Wayne Rooney – not Ferguson. In all honesty, I was disappointed with Ferguson’s comments as they were inappropriate in every way.
Now to the matter at hand – Suarez declining Evra’s handshake. Do you really think this is an issue? This is not the first time a player has snubbed the handshake of another player, and, surely won’t be the last. The motivation behind Suarez’s snub is nothing but conjecture. The media has built this situation in order to see this conclusion; you are blind if you cannot see that. In this age of technology we are all propagandized; and it is up to us to form our own conclusions based off of sound individual information gathering. The facts of this case point to an FA decision that was surely decided by a preponderance of the evidence standard rather than the typical criminal burden of proof, “beyond a reasonable doubt.” I don’t think any of us can pass judgement of Suarez’s actions. He has been convicted of racism, served his penalty and paid his fine; that’s the end of the story. He had the right not to shake Evra’s hand before he was labelled a racist and he retains that right now. This is not an issue.
GuidoLFC
12. Feb, 2012
Good post lad.. Unfortunately it will go over the heads of most non LFC fans.. The fact is, fans of other teams are never going to question how the Fa. came to this stupid conclusion. Its much easier to take the Fa’s word as “the Gospel” and to then make judgements from there.. What makes this situation worse is how the media have totally had their own way with no question.. Evra and the FA. said he wasn’t a racist but the media still label him one..
Arimaman
12. Feb, 2012
Well put Enough
live4liverpool
11. Feb, 2012
Henderson Suck, his the reason we lost .every time he forces gerrard to get out of his area to make the passes ,gerrard cant attack and come back running defending . when adam came in gerrard had the chance to go front more because there was cover at the back i dont blame spearing for his mistake he was pressured from the Man united players
Hyperbeat
11. Feb, 2012
Guess everyone is entitled to their own opion. But if I was publicly declared a racist, knowing I am not. I would not in a million years shake hands with the twat who wrongly accused me and branded as being a racist. If anyone are to be blamed then it is the FA and Whisky nose. Whisky nose have enough power and influence to have defused this whole situation, before it all got out of hand. As for FA – lost all respect them a long time ago.
david
11. Feb, 2012
suarez account may have had some inconsistencies, but he was the only one in the whole case who wasnt allowed to re-watch the incident, the expected some inconsistencies.
if offence is taken mistakenly, does responsibility lie with the speaker or the offended party? In the case of the Mayor’s aide who resigned (he was later reinstated), most US media commentary suggested that the offended person’s ignorance was to blame (ie ignorance of the dictionary meaning of “niggardly”). But the reverse seems to be the case with the Suarez incident, even though Patrice Evra initiated the conversation in Spanish.
basically evras ignorance got him offended. the word isnt racist in spanish.
basically if someone wrongly accused me of anything and somehow i was found guilty even though i was innocent, i would find it incredibly difficult to shake someones hand (especially as its meant to be a sign of respect), is it possible to respect someone who had done something like that to you?
http://newsframes.wordpress.com/2012/01/06/media-on-racism-churnalism/
drake
11. Feb, 2012
What was Manchester Utd response to Eric Cantona’s Kung Fu assault ? Was Cantona sanctioned by Ferguson ? NO he was given a pay rise when he threatened to quit
Paul
12. Feb, 2012
Finally, someone is making some sense! Tom, you’ll surely be abused by the paranoid LFC fans, but bravo to you for writing this article.
Dave McQueen
12. Feb, 2012
Tom – really dissapointed with your take in this article. Did you watch the video?? Evra only offered his hand once Suarez had gone by – an what if Evra’s attempt to snap Luis in 2, only to smash rio instead. You question Kenny’s loyalty to his player – I’m just glad most fans agree with KK. If somebody called me a racist I’d ensure never to even look them in the eye. And why did the FA save their darling terry from shaking antons hand, yet they played it out here for the media.
Harvey
12. Feb, 2012
When Liverpool signed Luis Suarez they should’ve known they were getting, a player that lives on the edge at all times. Capable of the outrageously brilliant and unbelievably stupid in equal measure. He’s had the hand ball at the world cup for which people labeled him a cheat (which he celebrated when the player missed the penalty which didn’t help his case, it was funny tho). Then he bit another player while playing for Ajax, then the middle finger at Fulham, now he won’t shake Evras hand. He simply cannot control the emotions that drive them to be the great player he is. The difference with Luis is that people (the media and other fans) have decided he’s the anti christ who was sent to destroy English football and needs to be stopped at all costs. Does anyone honestly believe Ferguson would have been any less protective of Rooney had he done something similar?? Of course he would’ve protected him because these are the great players that win you games. Do I believe that his incredible talent exonerates Luis from blame for his actions, no absolutely not. If he racially abused anybody he should be punished as it has no place in society never mind on a football pitch but only those 2 players really know what happened and a bit of perspective need to taken sometimes, what do people want?? Do they want Suarez forced out of the club?? Most of the greatest talents in the history of the game have always been temperamental and live on the edge and cross it at various points in their careers
Edgar Toti
12. Feb, 2012
Who Cares About A Handshake . If Managers Done It Before Why Cant The Players ? Pepe Riena Let One Pass From Between His Legs , Thats What Pissed Me Off . Riena A Top 10 Best My Ass .
Harvey
12. Feb, 2012
Hard work trying to reply on the phone! Apologies for not finishing the post properly but I’ll have a go at finishing it now.
That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be punished when they do something wrong, far from it but equally it doesn’t make them the devil incarnate who should be burnt at the stake. If you’ve been watching and reading about the game for a long time you will know that the media needs a hate figure because it makes good press. The Evra, Suarez story has been great for all forms of media and they will drag it out as long as possible. It has divided opinion and brought forth the cultural differences that now make up both the league and the country. At this point it would be easy to try and make comparisons with the Terry, Ferdinand situation but I don’t feel the need to get into that whole debate as I think the difference is clear for all to see. I have no doubts that Luis will make more mistakes as history shows it appears to be in his character to do so but the question is can we put up with his flaws in order to marvel at his breathtaking talents?? There is no right answer, only each persons individual opinion.
casper
12. Feb, 2012
This has dragged on too long though i would’nt shake Evra’s hands i i were Suarez….whats the problem with Rio Ferdinand he felt it right to refuse Suarez’s hands…
Brian
12. Feb, 2012
This is a stitch up by Patrice Evra, Alex Ferguson and Manchester Utd to smear the reputation of Suarez by deliberately miscontruing his words to paint him as a racist. The way Evra celebrated at the end was a disgrace and intentionally done to provoke trouble. He should be banned for incitement and lying!!
ryan
12. Feb, 2012
Love how the media choose to ignore how:
-Evra didn’t make an effort to shake Suarez’s hand until after Suarez had past
-how Rio didn’t shake Suarez’s hand even though he wasn’t involved in the situation between the two
-Evra was blatantly trying to cause a bigger issue after the match; instead of him getting flack in the media, all anyone says is “yeah he shouldn’t have done it”…slight slap on the wrist
United/Evra/Alex are portrayed as the victims once again, and Suarez/LFC reputation once again take the hit.
JC
12. Feb, 2012
I can understand why Suarez refused. I think that he had every intention of doing it, I feel I can see that in his body language, but it was obviously something he felt uncomfortable doing, given his feelings of innocence.
When Evra dropped his hand slightly; (I’m not suggesting Evra did this deliberately, but the video evidence shows a movement away.) this movement could have been taken by Suarez as a refusal and he seized the opportunity to escape an uncomfortable situation.
He of course should have shook Evras hand even if he was required to stand there like a lemon and search for it. Be the bigger man if you will.
I feel we as a club have just been pouring fuel on the flames of this controversy with our vitrolic outbursts in social media and all of our handling of this case. Its time to move on and stop supplying verbal ammunition to those who would love to see our great clubs demise.
Its time to put the past behind us and let the football do the talking again.
YNWA
Rtruth
12. Feb, 2012
shake the guy hand and get over with it by beaten him and telling the world that you are not a racist but instead you refuse bull!!!! I’m not mad at Suarez neither Patrice. I’m mad at those jakeasses liverpool wasted her money behind.
Stewart D was completely shit, Anderson running like cut headed chicken. Menh those guys are killing liverpool. they are the one to be blamed for Suarez and Evra conflict. If they were playing their role by contributing then the responsibility couldnt have been on suarez alone but instead they run around doing nothing!!!!!! Liverpool need to sell all those asses!!!!!!!
LFChris
12. Feb, 2012
Evra refused to give his hand to Suarez it is almost as if Evra was saying ‘if you want to shake my hand, then you’ll have to come get it’ resulting in Suarez looking like a man with a guilty concious which I believe he is not. the FA and Mancs are out to destroy Luis as he a bit more wilder and unpredictable than what his the status quo in this country. I find it hilarious that the FA helped the racist Terry out but not Suarez which supports the point I made earlier. There seems to be a conformity amongst the media to just jump on the anti-Suarez bandwagon. And for Ferguson to tell us to get rind of him, he should be interrogated too! His players also refused to shake the hands of Suarez i.e. Ferdinand and Wellbeck and then Evra prancing around like a clown in front of Suarez in order to get a Suarez to retaliate was completely unnecessary but no one is speaking of that.
Neil
12. Feb, 2012
Why doesnt everyone associated with manc just f@@k off that inc their fans and the fa and media if evra hadn’t shaken Suarez hand they would all be saying he done the right thing he was the victim in all of this and if people are going to right stupid articles then go and right them else where
Supandi
12. Feb, 2012
Wayne Bridge refused to shake hands with John Terry, remember? So what’s the big deal if Suarez did the the same to someone he obviously doesn’t like. I’d do the same a thousand times over. Why don’t you just go and kiss Ferguson’s behind, Mr. Writer?
commonsense
12. Feb, 2012
fergie showing respect?he was being a piss taking c*nt you idiot!!!just more proof thet kenny has im rattled!
Tom Cullimore
12. Feb, 2012
Interesting. Couple of points to make:
Firstly, those citing Cantona, Terry, the FA, Ferguson, Evra etc as part of some kind of media/ football authority led conspiracy against Liverpool Football Club are missing the point entirely. I can only assume your objective has been to persuade me/anyone else that Suarez has been treated unfairly, yet you merely cement the widely supported view that LFC has reacted with a blinding paranoia to the whole issue. Here’s my tip: ditch the conspiracy theories; they do nothing but isolate the club and convince the general public of your unreasonable stance.
Secondly, the notion of the importance of the handshake. Yes, it was only introduced at the beginning of the game by Sky, but that was hardly the point Suarez was making when he chose not to shake Evra’s hand, so please don’t start using that to defend him. More importantly still, the Ferdinand-Suarez non-shake event is somehow being used to excuse the Evra conflict. Why? Surely the outrage stemming from it proves the double standards in the Liverpool camp as much as the United’s? It was distasteful and reactionary from the once England captain not to shake Suarez’s hand, but it remains the latter who has to answer questions of conduct first, for the basic reason that he instigated the row. For what it’s worth, I think the same about Wayne Bridge; entertaining as it was at the time, he should be disappointed in his inability to remain professional on the pitch, whatever his feelings off it.
Quickly, I’ve just seen Suarez and Kenny have apologised. This is exactly the level of respect that had been missing throughout the row. I can only hope fans will follow suit.
Enough
12. Feb, 2012
In the spirit of friendly banter… (speaking of my previous post only and not for the posts of others)
Suarez was convicted of racism and that is one point that cannot be argued. I pointed out only that he was convicted by a lesser standard (preponderance v. reasonable doubt) because the FA operates as a private association and can regulate in a different standard than the common law of the rest of the country. Therefore, Suarez was convicted by a lesser burden of proof than he would be in a normal criminal trial similar to the one John Terry will face in the summer. In many respects, Suarez would have been better off facing courtroom rather than an FA independent panel. However, a conviction is a conviction is a conviction…
The real matter here is the handshake. I have already spoken about criminal law and I feel it is necessary to do so again. Suarez has served his punishment in full, and paid his fines. I, for one, am tired of the constant double standard that applies to most people in every walk of life – the legal standard as applied by the judicial system and the moral standard as applied (randomly) by society. In short, this world is morally bankrupt with the major violators being those countries that are industrialized, e.g., USA, UK, Germany, France etc… Moreover, platonic form of “morals” does exist, everyone’s personal beliefs are vastly different. Therefore, the only standard that should be applied in these situations, is the law of the land where the crime or tort was committed. That legal standard has been applied to Suarez. Shanking hands before a soccer match is not a legal standard, the FA (as a private association) could have fashioned Suarez’s penalty to reflect his duty to shake Evra’s hand in all future encounters – alas, they did not. Ultimately, whether or not he should have shaken hands with Evra becomes a personal question (based on morality) that can never have a concrete answer.
With regard to Ferguson, Evra, Rooney, Rio and the media etc..I stand by my initial views of Ferguson’s comments and I will not address them further in this comment. The same applies to Rooney. In fact, the more I watch Rooney’s interview, the more impressed I am with his response to the issue. Rio, is Rio and if you have ever read any of his tweets it doesn’t take long to realize that he is incapable of calculating the future effects of any action taken in the present. However, my previous comments stand for him as well, he was under no obligation to shake Suarez’s hand. In addition, I think we all can agree (Ferguson agrees) that Evra acted poorly at the end of the game. In fact, I was impressed that Suarez took that abuse the way he did, perhaps he is maturing? Liverpool and etc apologizing is placating the media. It should needed to be done but I would suggest it doesn’t represent their true feelings on the issue.
I think it is paramount that fans recognize that Suarez was convicted of racism. The truth of that conviction should also acknowledged (moral standards aside), (1) it was a conviction under private association law, (2) Suarez was not convicted by a jury of his peers, (3) the evidentiary burden of proof was lessened, and (4) Suarez is not under a legal obligation to shake hands before the game, neither is Rio, Evra or Bridge. There is no ignorance in acknowledging the truth.
The morality debate can rage on. However, there is no right answer here because everyone will view this incident in a slightly different light, which is perhaps what makes it a good journalistic topic. Still, the facts are the facts and the legal issue should be closed. Suarez was convicted of Racism, the club, the fans and everyone else should acknowledge that. This debate is for the birds, i.e., Manchester United fans, who apparently have a club wide view of Manchester morals. I for one won’t be subscribing to that literature…
enough
12. Feb, 2012
Sorry for the mistake:
“Moreover, platonic form of “morals” does exist, everyone’s personal beliefs are vastly different.”
— should read:
“Moreover, IF A platonic form of “morals” does exist, everyone’s personal beliefs OF THAT FORM are vastly different.”
Dave McQueen
13. Feb, 2012
Suarez wasnt convicted of anything – and it was misconduct , not racism. Tom – your criticism of bridge amazes me further. If you would shake hands with a man that slept with the mother of your child, having paraded as your best friend, then you’d clearly be a saint. Either way criticizing another man for not showing such tolerance is naive. Suarez felt Evra had purposely and wrongfully accused him of racism – why should he shake his hand? The apology, as you know, is the club stepping in to draw a line under a no win situation. However this shouldn’t take away from the fact that many, including myself believe Suarez to have been victimized by the media and FA. Kenny’s loyalty should be lauded, not critIcised.
As for rio – drug cheat. Fergie defended him. What of that?
Tom Cullimore
13. Feb, 2012
Why is it surprising that I’d criticise Bridge? Surely if I’m lamenting Suarez’s non-shake it’s only fair to be consistent? The point with the handshake before the game, as with any symbol of sportsmanship, is that regardless of the context of the game you begin by displaying professionalism and a basic respect of your opponent. Suarez can victimise himself as much as he wants off the pitch, but even if he thinks Evra set him up (which everyone outside of Liverpool Football Club accepts did not happen – see my earlier comment) the expectation is, as a professional footballer, that he should shake the hand of every opposition player. Extreme or petty, context means nothing; the principle remains exactly the same. That, simply, is why what Suarez did was wrong.
Other quick things; I’m hardly criticising Kenny’s loyalty, more that after Suarez failed to show mutual respect to his manager that he might want to reconsider defending him so blindly.
And as for the Rio drugs thing – really?! Are you expecting me to perform a sudden u-turn and write a new blog on Suarez’s innocence? Dragging in irrelevant instances of Ferguson being in the wrong does nothing for the No 7′s defence. This blog is about Luis Suarez bringing the name of his club into disrepute, nothing else.
DaveZ
13. Feb, 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Gh2GklvY7eQ
This is a good video that convinced me that Suarez had been victimised. Evra’s hand dropped and did not keep up with his natural handshake rhythm, while Suarez’s hand was consistent in the rhythm and i felt that Suarez did want to shake his hand and when Evra’s hand dropped, he just moved on. What do u expect Suarez to do? Wait for Evra? I think evra is of poor character- see how he was taunting Suarez at the end of the match with his smug smile. Evra is doing what every ManU player is doing, make sure Lpool best player get sidelined/sold….My respect has grown for Suarez for not responding to Evra’s childish tactics and my respect had dropped for L’pool management for not looking at the videos carefully. I am almost certain Suarez and Dalglish were pressured to make those statements. My heart goes out to Suarez for being victimised.
Duncan
13. Feb, 2012
I am absolutely loving this. Watching so many deluded fans revert to this conspiracy theory rubbish. You honestly think your club is that important that the FA would have an agenda against you? Pathetic.
Meanwhile, your reputation is getting even smaller, you won’t be able to attract the big names any more and your ship is sinking, struggling to qualify for the Europa League.
10 more years and Liverpool FC won’t exist. the next Rangers.
Dave McQueen
13. Feb, 2012
How can bridge be compared to Suarez – bridge was the man that has been (in everybody’s eyes) wronged so the comparison is feeble.
Also totally disagree only LFC fans believe suarez to have been wronged. Several people feel Suarez was falsely accused – his countrymen including Poyet have defended him robustly, aware of the context of Suarez conversation. Yet you claim we should all agree that Evra felt racially abused. Totally disagree – its a situation that has been manipulated by both Evra, Fergie and utd.
And this is why Suarez refused to shake evra’s hand – he feels he has been made to look a racist – destroying his reputation and in his opinion with little justification. If somebody had done that to you I’m sure you’d think twice before offering him your hand..
Tom Cullimore
13. Feb, 2012
Well, no. The point I’m making is that if I were a professional footballer (and I can’t stress the importance of the next word enough) *regardless* of my personal feelings, career destroying manipulator or best friend, I’d shake his hand. It’s a basic sign of decency.
And, I’m fully aware of being at risk of repeating myself here, but if you continue to bang on about Evra, Fergie and United being part of a conspiratorial, premeditated, reputation-destroying assault on Suarez’s reputation then nobody (outside of various fan pages online) is going to listen to you. It comes across as paranoid and deluded. The facts are there – you just need to start looking at them from an unbiased perspective.
Dave McQueen
13. Feb, 2012
Btw Duncan, think you’ll find utd have a huge amount of debt, unlike Liverpool ..and rangers won the league last year. I’m sure 3rd spot and a runnin the Europa League will be a great year for you.
Dave McQueen
14. Feb, 2012
Because fergie and Evra don’t have a reputation of such acts..possibly Domenech, Rafa, wenger would disagree. If ferguson has such a high moral standpoint, why did he allow keane to play on after ending Haalands career. No handshakes there – rather fergie claimed keane had done nothing wrong. And I assume he forgot past actions when signing Bosnich, a man who went as low as making Hitler salutes to Spurs fans. Should we go on? Cantina, rio – he has always defended his own players to the hilt whilst being quick to jump on others. Attacking a fan, ending another players career – these are ok – but refusing a handshake should result in a life time ban..
Our interpretation of the facts are clearly different to others. If it was black and white as you suggest, no issue would exist.
Regardless – professional footballer or not – one shouldn’t be obligated to shake anybody’s hand. And if fergie disagrees maybe he can comment on his refusal to shake hands with Mourinho – or perhaps then it was ok..
Tom Cullimore
14. Feb, 2012
It seems that anything I say is going to be either misconstrued or ignored – you’re *that* determined to come to the same conclusion regardless of any suggestions I make about the slightest possibility you could have this one wrong.
When you say ‘Our interpretation of the facts are clearly different to others’ by others you presumably mean everyone else? Do you genuinely believe it’s coincidental that it’s only Liverpool fans backing Suarez?
‘If it was black and white as you suggest, no issue would exist.’ What on earth does that mean? It IS black and white and that’s why an issue exists, because Liverpool and Suarez were firmly in the wrong. They’ve admitted it, why can’t you?
Oh, and ‘one shouldn’t be obligated to shake anybody’s hand’ ? Evra wasn’t obligated to shake Suarez’s but he offered (and, god forbid you disagree with that too, I think I mentioned something about it in an earlier comment). That was the honourable thing to do and Suarez certainly should have reciprocated.
Tom Cullimore
14. Feb, 2012
And, on Fergie, outside of the context of the racism row, I’ll criticise his conduct as much as anyone else, but I stand by what I said: his post match interview displayed an awful lot more respect than Suarez’s snub. Fair enough, it’s not exactly difficult to trump him in that respect, nor was Ferguson exactly heaping praise on the club, but the point remains that when a Liverpool striker is outdone by Manchester United’s manager something needs to be done.
Dave McQueen
14. Feb, 2012
And you aren’t determined to prove your point?
What on earth does the facts aren’t clear mean? Well what do you think it means? Do you think you know everything that has occurred ? Do you think evra’s statement was factual and Suarez false? Do you think it’s a ‘fact’ that fergie was being a gent in applauding Liverpool’s history, whilst at the same time suggesting the never let Suarez play for them again? Liverpool didn’t apologize for the original offense and have only done so now due to media and public pressure – or do you disagree with that also?? Evra was happy to shake Suarez hand because he felt he had won – if it were the other way round Evra wld have not even apologized. This is a man who disgraced his own country and barely acknowledged his wrong doing. The only Fact is Suarez feels that he was wrongly accused of racism and that Evra and fergie had a role to play in this. As such, he felt totally justified in not shaking his hand. I’m jut glad that the majority of Liverpool fans and his team mates won’t be so quick to give up on one of their own.
Tom Cullimore
14. Feb, 2012
‘Do you think evra’s statement was factual and Suarez false?’
Not exactly, but the jist it there. As I say, Evra’s was found to be far more consistent, and by extension, reliable, than Suarez’s. And if you want to bring up Evra’s history as ‘proof’ (despite the fact it proves absolutely nothing about this case) anyone else following the same logic will raise Suarez’s equally unimpressive footballing past.
And, as Manny points out below, if you’re talking about loyalty, the reason I’m considering giving up on him is that he displayed such disrespect to Kenny and the club. Both backed him absolutely and risked their respective reputations. If the choice was between Dalglish and Suarez – given what they’ve each contributed to make the club what it is – who would you pick?
Manny
14. Feb, 2012
The point the writer is trying to make is that in spite of assuring his manager LFC that he would shake Evra’s hand and put an end to the issue, Suarez did not. KD and LFC had assured everyone that Suarez would shake Evra’s hand. Suarez made a fool of KD and LFC. KD and LFC have had to apologize for Suarez’s behaviour. Do these fans think KD and LFC should have been put in this situation by Suarez? Should Suarez not have made his feelings about the handshake clear to KD & LFC before he made a fool of KD? Why is everyone missing the point being made by the writer? Is Suarez bigger than KD? Amazing!!
Dave McQueen
15. Feb, 2012
Az you well know, The so called unreliability off Suarez’ evidence is highly questionable – not least because Evra was allowed to review video evidence whilst Suarez wasn’t. Regardless, Suarez admitted what he said straight away, surely an indicator of his own belief he had done little wrong, especially in light of what Evra admitted saying to Suarez.
No doubt Suarez is hot headed, prone to acts that will propel him to the cast of villain from time to time – however his acts are shown to be reactionary, hot headed – a man that fails to control his passion often. I’d assume that his decision to not shake Evras’s hand was also a last minute decision, riled by the reaction of fans and players to his return. Evra however is shown to be calculating and vindictive – a man that behind closed doors led his country to throw away an entire world cup campaign.
As for Kenny or Suarez, it’s a stupid question. If Kenny feels his loyalty has been breached to the extent he cannot trust Suarez, he will sell him. No doubt he will have spoken to him in depth, but if Kenny is prepared to stand by him so should we.
Tom Cullimore
16. Feb, 2012
‘No doubt Suarez is hot headed, prone to acts that will propel him to the cast of villain from time to time – however his acts are shown to be reactionary, hot headed – a man that fails to control his passion often.’
It amazes me that you seem to be using his temper as some kind of excuse (as implicated by your use of the word ‘however’), as if it’s unreasonable for people to be offended if they were racially abused spontaneously, rather than in a pre-meditated fashion.
Don’t get me wrong – I’d put his uncontrolled (or, perhaps, uncontrollable) temper top of the list of reasons why he snapped at Evra in the first place, but if in the act of snapping he used language that is racially offensive, surely it’s impossible to avoid the conclusion that he’s in the wrong?
And, after this, I’m not going to waste much more time discussing the view point that Suarez can’t be criticised because Evra’s behaviour was as bad, or worse; Liverpool are responsible for Suarez’s actions – the club and its fans should stick to attempting to reconcile their various regrettable decisions over the past months, before laying into other clubs or their players. It’s a basic, logical principle, one that seems in tune with the proud traditions of Liverpool Football Club, that you get your own affairs in order before accusing anyone else of an offence, and it is a dogma that I hope the club, and its fans, will be returning to.
Dave McQueen
17. Feb, 2012
Possible to advise where I once said racial abuse is acceptable ? However doesn’t relate to racial abuse – it relates to not shaking evra’s hand, biting opponents etc so don’t quote people falsely.
My point all along has been Suarez was not guilty of racial abuse – so how you come to the conclusion I’m defending this aspect is clearly ridiculous. Perhaps a job at the Sun beckons.
Tom Cullimore
18. Feb, 2012
I’m not quoting you falsely; I’m telling you the implications of what you said, which, to me, seemed perfectly relevant to the debate. If you think you’ve been misrepresented then feel free to rephrase the passage I’ve quoted you on.
Dave McQueen
19. Feb, 2012
Its the way you choose to interpret them – thus not up to the author to rephrase. At no stage was the racism linked with hot headeness and, at danger of repeating myself, given I don’t believe Suarez made a racial slur, have no idea how you manage to come to this conclusion
Tom Cullimore
20. Feb, 2012
The racism is absolutely linked with the hot-hotheadedness. Your defence of Suarez is, evidently, founded on his inability to control his temper (which leads me conclude you’re confusing ‘excuse’ and ‘reason’) and you’ve defended Suarez for the handshake AND the racism row. I hardly think I’m jumping to conclusions. Though, as I say, if you feel contrary to that, by all means clarify the issue for me.
Luke Wronski
21. Feb, 2012
Tom,
Dug the article, man. One of my favourites you’ve written. For me, it’s really not a matter of racism or racially charged insults anymore. It’s a matter of selfishness. What Suarez did, after all the support he recieved from Kenny and the fans, what undeniably selfish. No Liverpool fan enjoyed this whole saga and just wanted it to end in any fashion, a desire that was taken from us with that refusal of a handshake. It’s incredibly arrogance on Suarez’s part to think that supporters will back that kind of a gesture. I’m glad he apologized, and hope it’s done with now, but he really made it difficult for me as a supporter and the only way he can make it up to me is a hat-trick against Cardiff.
Luke
Dave McQueen
21. Feb, 2012
I don’t believe his comments had racial connotations – what bit of that don’t you understand? So yes, you are jumping to conclusions. As I said previously, thank god the majority of fans are behind LS, as seen on Sunday.
Tom Cullimore
23. Feb, 2012
Ok, but I’ve made a statement about Suarez being proven to be in the wrong by an independent panel and in reply, as in to counter that point, you’ve spoken about his hotheadedness in terms, that due to your phrasing, come across as excuses for what he did, as if to diminish how wrong it was. If the way you’ve written it isn’t representative of how you feel then that’s fine, but I don’t appreciate being compared to a Sun journalist for pushing you on the amazingly unclear terms of your argument. As a Liverpool fan, knowing what that paper means in relation to this club, that kind of remark is entirely inappropriate.
Dave McQueen
23. Feb, 2012
And accusing somebody of condoning racism isn’t? Not a case of pot calling the kettle black? I’d clarified the point only for you to comment on it again – if you read my comments it clearly refers to the handshake. Your comments on the panel were made long before hand.
Tom Cullimore
23. Feb, 2012
Your first comment is indicative of the weakness of any of these arguments you’ve tried to establish; passing the blame somewhere else is not a convincing rhetorical strategy – I cannot believe that you are so insistent on continuing with those kind of statements.
Look, your comments do not ‘clearly’ refer to anything – they’re unclear, that’s the problem. In response to my point on Suarez being found guilty of racial conduct, on the 15th you reply directly to that with the paragraph beginning ‘Az you well know’, and – crucially – before you move onto my second point about loyalty (which you directly address beginning with ‘As for Kenny or Suarez’) you go on that bit about his hotheadedness. For that reason, I’ve guessed you’re still talking about my first point, the racism issue.
So there, that’s my reasoning. I think you’ll find it’s an awful lot more logical than your Sun remark.
Dave McQueen
23. Feb, 2012
Tom – anything I say you’ll just respond with the same rubbish. Youll see what you want to see. Accusing people of something with little reasoning is evidence of weak, trashy journalism – so I stand by my point.
I’ll be sure to try and structure my arguments a little clearer for you in future – not ideal from a phone – however even a clown can see my underlying message all along has been suarez should not have been found guilty of racism – and indeed would not have been in a court of law – so defending or justifying it isn’t required. Hard to grasp? Or shall I change the strategy of my rhetorical statement?
Tom Cullimore
24. Feb, 2012
Finally! Yes – do exactly that.
Dave McQueen
24. Feb, 2012
Maybe I will once you look up a couple of words in the dictionary – loyal and evidence.